The Step-By-Step System for Getting Interviewed on Podcasts
Getting featured on other podcasts is a great way to market your own show, talk directly to people who should know about you, and grow your audience.
Tom Schwab was quick to see the potential in podcast marketing. In 2014, he started Interview Valet, a concierge-level podcast guest marketing service. Schwab and his team use their all-inclusive system to help businesses and thought leaders book podcast appearances, prepare for interviews, create dedicated welcome web pages and track their results.
Jaime Masters’ interviewed Schwab on her podcast, Eventual Millionaire, where he offered specific tips for pitching yourself as a podcast guest and preparing to have a memorable interview.
An edited version of the episode follows immediately below. For comparison, scroll down to see the full 26-page (gasp!) transcript.
How and why did you start Interview Valet?
It came out of my experience with inbound marketing: using content to attract, engage, and delight customers. I had noticed that blogs weren’t working nearly as well as they used to. Even when one did, it was like one to two percent conversions from visitors to leads. I hypothesized that you could use podcast interviews in much the same way we used to use guest blogging.
We started to get our clients booked for podcasts and I was amazed by the results: conversation rates that were 25 times better than blogs. The traffic was immediate, and we got SEO benefit as well. Plus, people say it’s a lot more fun than blogging. Over the last four years, we’ve tested and refined it to come up with a system we call Podcast Interview Marketing. I believe that in five years, it will be as common as Facebook or email marketing.
How do you find podcasts that will resonate with your customers and produce results?
When considering a show, look at its popularity in iTunes, and what kind of listeners it has. It could be a huge podcast, but if it’s not your ideal listener, it’s like swimming in a fishing pool. You’re not going to get many results.
At Interview Valet, we look at our results with previous customers. If you’re a coach, look for podcasts other coaches have been on. Or even ask people, “Which podcast worked well for you?”
Then look at the show’s website. As a guest, you’ll get a backlink from them, which is so important to your search engine optimization. Look at social media as well. If you want to build your Instagram following, try to go on podcasts that have lots of followers there.
Often, I can’t tell if a podcast has ten or one million downloads. How do you judge audience size?
Analytics are tough. When a host gives numbers, take them with a grain of salt. But be aware that results don’t correlate to numbers, anyway. I was once on a show with 40,000 listeners and I sold about two dozen of my courses. I was glad to do that. But I got on another show that had 350 downloads and I sold 100 courses from that. There’s more fish in the ocean, but if you can find a barrel of fish, go there every time.
What’s the best way to pitch yourself as a potential guest?
Nobody likes a cold call. It’s all about targeting. If you want to be on a podcast, earn the right to be there. Listen to a few episodes. Leave a rating and review. Not only does it help the host, but it helps other people find the podcast. Plus, you’ve gone from a cold call to a familiar name: “I remember this person. They left a rating and review a couple weeks ago. They commented on some of my social media. They even reposted it.”
Once you’ve built that relationship, reach out and say something like, “Jaime, I love Eventual Millionaire. I liked what Tom said. Here are some things that I could offer your audience.” Make it easy for people to say yes.
Then, follow up to show that you’re interested – but don’t pester them: “I appreciate you keeping me in mind. If you ever have somebody who cancels at the last minute, just let me know.” It’s little things people do that make them stand out.
Let’s say you got the “yes” to be a guest on a show. What’s the best way to prepare?
You should prep even before you pitch by listening to the show. You want to know the audience. Nothing will ruin your credibility more than jumping on stage in Cleveland and saying, “Hello, Columbus!”
Think of stories that could be meaningful to listeners. Content is king but context is God, so don’t just give generic stories. Make them specific to that audience.
I always warm up my guests a little because, as a host, I want to make sure that the energy is good. Any tips for the interview itself, especially if it’s your first one?
Let your true personality come through. Don’t think about the tens of thousands of listeners. You’re just talking to one person. To me, the best podcast interviews are the ones where it’s like you’re listening in to a conversation.
I agree. My first ever interview was horrible. Don’t worry if you suck at first. You get better and better. What else should we keep in mind?
Stay away from new podcasts. There’s something called “pod fade.” Most podcasts that die do so within the first ten episodes. Anybody that says doing a podcast is easy has never done it — or never done it well.
People listen to podcasts at the gym, when they’re driving, when they can’t click on or write down anything. What’s the best way to get them to connect with you?
Move them from being a passive listener to an active visitor to your site and an engaged lead. Digital marketers will always tell you, “Give them one call to action.” But you need to meet people where they are with free downloads. Give them a small “yes.”
If you go to interviewvalet.com/em, the page we created for this interview, you see that Jaime’s picture and the Eventual Millionaire logo shows up first. It’s a trust seal. Then there’s my picture, a welcome message, my social media, and my offers. Don’t send people to a landing page – “go there and sign up.” And if you send them to your homepage, that will change over time. There’s somebody right now in 2020 that’s listening to this. Our testing has shown that you should always send listeners to a welcome page.
What should a podcast guest expect, in terms of return on investment?
It comes down to three things: message, market, and machine. If one is weak, your results will be weak.
First, the message: nobody likes an infomercial. Make sure you’ve got stories to tell, not just products to sell. Next, the market: know who you want to talk to. Finally, the machine: when somebody hears you on a podcast, they’re going to check out your website and your social media. If those don’t support you, you’re working against yourself.
Podcast interviews are a great place for relationship sales and lifetime value — not for transactions. What I’m focusing on is not how many widgets can I sell today, but how many people can I serve, how I build my tribe over time. There’s a great quote from Rand Fishkin, the founder of Moz: that best way to sell something today is not to sell anything, but to earn the awareness, trust, and respect of those that might buy. That’s what we do on podcasts.
Ready to get easy-to-read Q&As for your episode?
Raw, unedited transcript:
Jaime Masters: Welcome to Eventual Millionaire. I’m Jaime Masters and I have waited forever to have my very good friend, Tom Schwab, on the show. He runs interviewvalet.com, which everybody should take a look. He’s also an author of a book. Please welcome him. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Tom.
Tom Schwab: Jaime, I’m thrilled to be here. The only way it could be better is if we were both sitting there having coffee in Austin.
Jaime Masters: I know, right? These two chairs behind me. That would be amazing. Next time, we’ll definitely do that. So I’ve known you for a really long time and you’ve been doing Interview Valet for only a few years. Tell me a little bit about the start of Interview Valet.
Tom Schwab: Sure. Really it came out of my experience with inbound marketing. Using content to attract, engage, and delight customers. And it’s not a new concept. HubSpot’s been talking about it for about 15 years. But one of the things that we saw was that blogs weren’t working nearly as well as they used to. And even when a blog worked well, it was like 1 to 2 percent conversions from visitors to leads. And so about four years ago, I was working with a couple of clients and they had great stories, they had great voices, and it was really hard to tell them, “Well, just write some more blogs and give it a couple years and you might get some traction.”
So I hypothesized that you could use podcast interviews much the same way we used to use guest blogging. Right? Instead of putting a blog on your site and having it read by three people, one of them being your mom, put it on Huffington Post, The Wall Street Journal, some place to get in front of the right audience and get that traffic, the leads back. And so we started to do that with podcast interviews.
And, Jaime, I was amazed at the results with it. We started seeing conversation rates that were 25 times better than blogs. The traffic was immediate. We got SEO benefit from all the backlinks. And people were saying it was a whole lot more fun than writing a blog. So over the last four years, we’ve tested it, we’ve refined it, we’ve really come up with a system that we call Podcast Interview Marketing. And I really believe that Podcast Interview Marketing, in five years, is gonna be as common as Facebook marketing or email marketing.
Jaime Masters: Which I love because I hate writing and so getting in front of people is way easier for me. So we’re gonna dive really, really deep into this, especially because we’ve actually had some of the people that have purchased Interview Valet or who work with you guys on my show and they’re fantastic guests. But they’re also very good at pitching them, unlike most other humans that I get. I get so many emails, I think I should blank out the names and show people some of the what not to do’s. And hopefully you can help us with some of what to do. Because there are so many and especially the bigger names get pitched constantly. How do you break through that?
Tom Schwab: Yeah. And I get pitched about once or twice a day for my podcast and they all start the same way, “I’ve listened to your podcast and love it. I would like to be a guest.” The only thing is that I don’t have a podcast, Jaime. So if you’re gonna lie to me, at least tell me I’m pretty. Right? So those robo pitches? Nobody likes a cold call. Right? Nobody likes a cold sale or anything like that. So it’s all about targeting. It’s not shotgun blast. It’s a rifle thing. So if you want to be on a podcast interview, earn the right to be there. Right?
So the first thing to do is make sure it’s the right podcast that’s got your ideal listeners onto it and then listen to it. Listen to a few episodes. Leave a rating and review. The work that podcasters do is amazing. You know? If you enjoy Eventual Millionaire, take a moment and just go leave a rating and review. Because not only does it help the host, it helps other people find that, but I guess another thing is that, if you leave a rating and review, the host will recognize it. Right?
So all of a sudden you’ve gone from a cold call to, “Wow. Yeah, I remember this person. They left a rating and review a couple weeks ago. And then they commented on some of my social media. They even reposted it and did that.” And then after you’ve built up that, at least basis, of a relationship, then reach out and say, “Jaime, I love Eventual Millionaire. I was listening to a couple of episodes. I liked what Tom said about this. I liked what Rosie said about this. And here are some things that I could offer your audience.” Right?
Gary Vaynerchuk talks about jab, jab, jab, right hook. And I might have missed a couple of jabs in there. I look at that as serve, serve, serve, ask. So you’re goal on being on a podcast is to make the host look like a genius for having you there. So if you always focus on that, you will find that you do much better than somebody that says, “Dear ma’am or sir, I have a new book and I would like to be on your podcast and abuse your audience for my purposes.” Because that’s what the emails are.
Jaime Masters: Yeah. It’s so me, me, me, me. And we get PR pitches and stuff, “This guy’s amazing.” And you look at your thing and you’re like, okay, it’s a bunch of blather. And what sucks is they don’t realize that either. So especially for the PR agencies, the people that are pitching, going, “Please.” Right? It’s most likely, when they get one of those other blanket emails that nobody really cares about, and it doesn’t showcase how good the guest could actually be. But somebody’s name will give you a second thought. So if anybody follows me on Twitter or anything like that and messages me, then I remember their names. And it’s huge, right?
So when we’re looking at how to – so let’s say they get past the very, very initial stage. Right? So you get a little reply back. This is kind of what I do. I forward it to Leilani and I go, “They seem cool. Check and see if they’re a millionaire.” Right? So I send them off to her usually first. Unless it’s from you. I definitely trust you. But when we’re looking at sort of those next steps, how do you actually ask or how do you get them on the hook so you can actually book a show?
Tom Schwab: Right. And so part of that is knowing what the requirements are. So if you know what the requirements are, that you have to be a millionaire on the show, make sure you mention it in there. And it’s not a picture of you in front of the Bentley at the car museum. It’s saying this is how I made my money. Make it easy for people to say yes. Right? Because you may be writing this email on your desktop and it looks beautiful. I guarantee you the podcast host is reading it on their phone and they’re scrolling through and they’re looking for reasons to say yes or no. So make it easy for them on the first time.
And then follow up to show that you’re interested but don’t pester them. Right? So be considerate of that. Maybe follow up once and then follow up in a couple of weeks and say, “Jaime, I just saw this article,” or “Your interview was great. I know you’re booked out but I appreciate,” the assumptive close, “I appreciate you keeping me in mind. If you ever have somebody that cancels at the last minute, please just let me know.” So, once again, all of that serving, serving, serving on that and focusing up on that.
Another thing is a lot of podcasters will tell somebody no and say, “I’m really booked out. Follow up with me in 90 days.” The number of people that won’t follow up in 90 days is just amazing. So just send yourself an email and use boomerang to wait 90 days and say, “Follow up with Jaime about being on the show.” So it’s little things that people do that make them stand out.
Jaime Masters: Seriously. The boomerang tip, I was exactly gonna say that same thing if you didn’t say it. So go you. You took the words out of my mouth. And the last minute piece, too, because we do sometimes have people that are sick or something comes up. And if I know that they’re willing to be able to do that, we bump them up on the list. So these are really core tips for everybody. And that’s the other piece too. When you’re trying to do it, you’re trying to build a relationship instead of just having a one-off and going on their show anyway.
So how do we provide, especially on the prep side, the best for their audience? Because when you listen to a podcast, we don’t totally know exactly who their audience is potentially. Let’s say they got the yes for getting on the show. How do we prep for all that?
Tom Schwab: Well, you should have prepped even before you pitched, from the standpoint of listening to other interviews. Right? Because what you want to do is you want to know the audience that you’re going in front of. Nothing will ruin your credibility more than jumping on stage in Cleveland and saying, “Hello, Columbus!” People stop listening. Or if there’s a question they ask every time, make sure you’ve got the answer to that. If they ask that question that they always ask and you go, “Huh, I’ve never thought about that,” you’ve just told the audience, “I’ve never listened to this show before.” And it loses that.
Think of examples that you can use that would be meaningful to their audience. So Eventual Millionaire. What are things that you can do that would help people make that first million? Reach that first million? Content is king but context is god so don’t just give generic stories. Make them specific to that audience.
Jaime Masters: Definitely. Okay. So looking at prepping – and hopefully we know who the audience is. And, as you know, at the beginning, I give the last question just in case people have not actually ever listened to my show. Because otherwise they look like a deer in headlights and I have a bad show by them going, “Uh.” Right? And then it’s like, “Huh, should have prepped you before.” I learned that lesson the hard way, by the way.
So I let everyone know in advance, which is wonderful, even if they don’t need it. So that way I can try and warm them up a little because, as a host, you’re trying to make sure that the energy is good and if they are nervous. So what happens if you’re not great as an interview guest? Or I even turn red, right? And so people that are nervous speaking in front of people, how do we get them to feel more comfortable when they’re doing their first few interviews?
Tom Schwab: Yeah. And this is like Broadway 101, right? What do they do before they go on Broadway? They do smaller ones, right? So we have some clients that come to us and their first thing is, “I want to be on Eventual Millionaire.” And you realize you’ve never done a podcast interview. You don’t want to go on Broadway your first one. Right? So do some practice. Don’t think that I’ve got to be on the big podcasts from the very beginning.
The other thing, too, is relax. Right? When you’re on a podcast interview, you’re not trying to get everybody to like you. Be yourself. And I guarantee you, there are three types of people right now that are listening to this. The ones that say, “Tom’s crazy, he’s stupid.” And they’ve made their judgment. That’s fine. It doesn’t mean they’re a bad person or I’m a bad person but I can tell you what. We would be a bad fit. So the other ones are like, “It was interesting.” And they go on with their life. So the third ones are the ones like, “That makes a whole lot of sense. I like him. I want to work with him.”
So don’t try appealing to everybody and be so generic and vanilla ice cream. Let your true personality come through. And that’s one of the things I love about podcasts is that – I hate doing videos. I get scared going up and speaking still. Right? But we’re just having a conversation. Right? Just if you and I were having a Zoom call is what it’s like right now. If we were calling over Skype.
Or we’ve even had clients where we ask them, “Would you drive across town to talk to ten ideal customers? Would you drive across state to speak with 100? Would you jump on a plane to speak with 1,000?” And you can just see them getting really nervous. And they’re like, “I don’t want to stand in front of a crowd.” Well, don’t think about that you’re talking to tens of thousands of listeners. You’re just talking to one person. And, to me, the best podcast interviews are the ones where it’s like somebody’s listening in to us sitting down at Denny’s, having a cup of coffee. Right? And they’re just in the next booth over just listening in.
Jaime Masters: I agree a million times over. And you get better and better and better. My first ever interview was on a radio show in the middle of Maine and I remember I was like – it was horrible also, by the way, so don’t worry if you suck really bad at first. My first few interviews on Eventual Millionaire also sucked really bad. So that’s a really key point that you said about the small shows. Because I think, especially when people want to see ROI from it, they’re like, “I want to go after the big stuff because I want to make my time count.” And getting your sea legs under you before you go do that is really important.
But let’s talk about the metrics side because when we look at podcasts online, they can have the coolest artwork and we have no idea if they have ten downloads or a million downloads. So how do you pick and choose? Because there’s no data really out there on it. How do we pick and choose what shows we want to be on and what are smaller shows and what are bigger ones?
Tom Schwab: Yeah. And with that, the analytics are tough. Right? The only person that knows their downloads is the hosting provider and the podcast host. And by terms of service, the hosting provider can’t share those. So you’ll hear a lot of numbers around and I don’t want to say that podcasters lie, but I can tell you that I can bench press 350. You know? I’m not lying. You were just thinking pounds, Jamie. I was thinking grams. So when they give numbers, take them with a grain of salt.
And the thing is is that results have never correlated to numbers. Right? You could be on the biggest show but it may not provide the results. So like myself, for example. When we were selling this as a course early on, I was on a show with 40,000 listeners and I sold about two dozen of the courses. I was glad to do that. I got on another show that had 350 downloads and I was like, “I don’t know if I would have been here.” You know? I sold 100 courses from that.
Jaime Masters: Really?
Tom Schwab: And it was like – the thing is it’s like there’s more fish in the ocean but if you can find a barrel of fish, go there every time. And even more than that, our algorithm really looks at four things as we look at podcasts. First is the podcast itself. So look at its popularity in iTunes and look at what kind of listeners it has. It could be a huge podcast but if it’s not your ideal listener, it’s like swimming in a fishing pool. You’re not gonna get many results there.
The other thing is look at the website. Right? Because every time you’re on a podcast, you’re gonna get a back link from them. And that’s so important to your search engine optimization. So run a quick check on it, what the Alexa ranking is, which is their popularity. Or their Moz, which is an authority. I could go on the Austin Community College podcast that’s got a .edu, and from an SEO value, sorry, Jaime, it would probably have more SEO value than Eventual Millionaire. Because .edu and .gov, those are golden.
The next thing is look at social media. If you want to build your Instagram following, well, try to go on podcasts that have lots of Instagram followers. And then finally we look at our results with previous customers. Right? So if we’ve got a client that was similar to them, how did they do it? So sometimes you can even benchmark off that. If you’re a coach, look for podcasts where other coaches have been on, because if they’re going on it, it probably means that they got some good results from it. Or even ask people, “Which podcast worked well for you?”
Jaime Masters: Yeah, because there’s so many nowadays too. How do you get that info? Because that’s the thing. That is a research project to the nth degree if you’re looking up the Moz. You know what I mean? And so there are some sites that sort of rank blogs. Is there one that ranks podcasts or you guys do it manually?
Tom Schwab: No, Jaime, there’s not a good way to do that. I’ve got a spreadsheet. I’ll put that up. I’ll share that. Anything we talk about, I’ll share it on a page. But it’s just a spreadsheet that you can manually put that in. You can have your VA put it in. And you say, “Well, that’s a lot of work.” Well, if you’re gonna be on the podcast, that’s an hour right there. The preparation time is probably another hour. The promotion, all the rest of that. And if it’s a bad podcast, or at least a bad fit for you, I’d rather invest the 15 minutes beforehand to realize this is a waste before going on that.
The other thing to stay away from is new podcasts. Right? There’s something called “pod fade.” Most podcasts that die, die within the first ten episodes. So if somebody has a podcast and they’re on Episode No. 6 and they want you to be a guest, maybe say, “I would love to do that. Could you reach out in 90 days?” Because a lot of them will die because it’s hard work. Anybody that says doing a podcast is easy has never done it or never done it well. That’s why, if you’re listening, you need to give them a rating and a review, just to thank them.
Jaime Masters: Yes. And as I remember, especially when John Dumas came out with all the podcasting stuff, because I was one of the first few that got interviewed and I helped him, I got so many requests. We put them all on a waitlist and there was probably like 100 and something of them. And I don’t think any of them exist at all anymore right now. Which, of course, sucks. I’m sure quite a few came through but it is, it’s a consistency game. And you might see only little bits of pieces as you’re going out and it’s tough for people to keep moving forward when it’s like that.
Tom Schwab: And that’s one of the reasons I don’t have a podcast right now. I’ve been on 1,200 podcast interviews and people are like, “Why don’t you have your own?” I’m like, “Because it’s a lot of work.” Right? And as an engineer, how do you get better return on investment? How do you get better efficiency output? Get more out by putting less in? So I look at this as I get to show up for the interview, I get to talk, Jaime’s doing all the hard work. Her team is gonna edit it, promote it, all the rest of this.
So that’s one of the great things about being a podcast guest. And if I take a month off in the summer, nobody’s gonna know. If you just take a month off in the summer and haven’t worked ahead of time, there’s gonna be tens of thousands of people that are gonna notice.
Jaime Masters: I have to batch everything. I know. So I have to double up on my batch days because I know. So you’re hacking the system, right? So tell us about some of the ROI because that’s the other piece. Yes, we have to make sure we’re shooting in the right barrel for certain, but can we expect? Because that’s the other piece. Either we have super crazy high expectations, right? Because I’ve heard that too. Like, “I’m just gonna go on podcasts.” I’m like, “Okay. So?” Right? Because it still takes some time, right? And even when you batch those days, they can all come out at different times and who knows what your conversion rate is on this specific landing page. We’ll talk about that in just a second.
But how can we make sure that the ROI is helpful? And do you have any data or advice that we can have on that?
Tom Schwab: Yes, very much so. And after our first 100 clients, we looked at them and, Jaime, we said, “How come some of them got good results and some of them got great results?” And it really boiled down to three things: message, market, and machine. And they all multiplied on themselves. So if one was weak, your results are gonna be weak. So the message is, “Do you have stories to tell and not just a product to sell?” Nobody likes an infomercial. So make sure you’ve got good stories.
The next one is the market. Right? Know who you want to talk to. The guest that says, “I want to talk to everybody.” They don’t want to listen to you. Right? And the other thing with the market is do you have something that can help them. You know you’re helping them when they can give you certificates of appreciation. Which in the U.S. are green dollar bills. Right? So if you go on a podcast and say, “I just want to build my brand,” I don’t know how you’re gonna get ROI out of that.
The final thing is the machine. When somebody hears you on a podcast, watches you on video, they’re gonna check out your website and your social media. If your website looks like it was built in Y2K, you’re gonna ruin trust. The social media, the same way. If it doesn’t support you, don’t even try getting out there on podcast interviews because you’re gonna be working against yourself.
Now, as far as the ROI goes, podcast interviews are a great place for relationship sales and lifetime value. They’re very bad for transactions. So if I’m just trying to sell a one-off of something – podcast interviews work great for virtual book tours but not for fiction. Right? If I’m just trying to meet you so you can buy my fiction book and I make $1.50 off of it, that’s a hard road to go. But if there’s a lifetime value of it. I’ve got the book, then I’ve got programs, then I’ve got coaching.
I really believe online today, it’s never been easier to make a transaction. Right? If you want to sell something, be a penny cheaper on Amazon and you’ll sell it. But the next day you’ll be beat by the next person that’s a penny cheaper. But it’s never been harder to build a relationship, a business, and that lifetime sales. So from that standpoint, look at this as part of relationship building and that’s where the ROI comes from. With the relationship with the podcast host, the SEO value, the lifetime value. And most of our clients don’t have great analytics. So from that standpoint, they’re like, “Yeah, it works great.”
But I love some of our clients. Like software and service companies, they know what their cost of lead acquisition is and their cost of customer acquisition is down to the penny. And a No. 1, big, publicly-traded company came to us and said, “Here’s our cost of lead acquisition, cost of customer acquisition. Can you beat this on a podcast interview?” I looked at it and said, “You could show up drunk on a podcast interview and beat that.” Now, luckily, they keep saying they’re gonna try this somebody, to test the philosophy, but it just shows there. And they doubled down two quarters in a row now because they were seeing such great results with it.
Craig Cody, who’s one of our clients, he spoke at Podfest this year and he shared his data so I’m not talking out of school here. But here’s a CPA that does tax coaching and he also does fractional CFO. So like part-time CFO work. So he knows his numbers and he reported, at 12 months, he had a 600 percent ROI and, at 24 months, he has a 1200 percent return on investment. And that’s discounting future earnings. That was just money he got paid up to that. So really the better lifetime value of a customer that you have, the better return you’ll have.
Jaime Masters: See, and knowing lifetime value, that’s a big piece. Right? Because most people don’t even know their numbers at all and they’re like, “I’m gonna go on a bunch of podcast interviews. I have no idea if it’ll work or not.” Right? And that’s the thing that’s really tough. So, everybody, get at least partial amounts of numbers, at least now, and then when you test you have something to go back to. But like you said, the stuff that’s really important though is relationship with the podcast host there too. So even if that interview, you kind of botch, but you make a really great connection then you can always come back on the show later also. Right?
Tom Schwab: I don’t know my LTD, my lifetime value of a customer, because a couple of years in, you’re still figuring that out. But at least I know that’s what I’m focusing on. That it’s not transaction of how many widgets can I sell today but how many people can I serve, can I build in my tribe and serve over time. And I think, if you’ve got that focus, then podcast interviews are a great way to go. There’s a great quote by Rand Fishkin, who’s from Moz, the founder of Moz. And he talked about the best way to sell something today is not to sell anything, but to earn the awareness, trust, and respect of those that might buy. And I think that’s what we do on podcasts.
Jaime Masters: Yeah. And Rand is amazing. He’s come on the show too. So how do we get them to do that? Especially because, when people are listening to podcasts, it’s usually at the gym, when they’re driving, when they can’t click on things or write down anything. Right? And texting was a thing for a while. What’s the best way to actually get them hooked into you? Not just knowing your name and going, “Oh, I’ve heard of that guy before.” How do they get in your system?
Tom Schwab: Right. And this, we’ve tested it. And our tests have always shown that you need to give them three ways to say yes. So I’m gonna pull behind the curtain here. So early on I said, “I’ll give you that spreadsheet.” Right? Another one that I give away a lot of times is a checklist. All of our customers have a checklist that they go through so they don’t make stupid mistakes. It’s better to learn from other people’s mistakes. I give away my book on there. If people want to talk to me, I put my calendar link on there.
And so what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to move them from being a passive listener to an active visitor to your site and an engaged lead. So digital marketing will always tell you, “Give them one call to action.”
Jaime Masters: Yeah.
Tom Schwab: That’s true but not from the stage. Right? If you’re, an extended period of time, selling from the stage, on a stage, you need to meet people where they are. So give them a small yes. The checklist, the Excel spreadsheet. Give them a medium yes, which could be the book. And give them the heck yes, where they come with credit card in hand, where they want to talk with the wizard. So sort of meet them where they are. That’s a great way to do it.
The other thing is don’t send people to a landing page or to your homepage. Right? Because a landing page, by definition, is, “Go there and sign up.” It’s a squeeze page, right? And, if you send them to your homepage, that’s gonna change over time. Right? There’s somebody right now in 2020 that’s listening to this and if I said, “Just go to the homepage,” and talked about different offers, they’re gonna get there and it’s not gonna be the same. So our testing has shown always send them to what we call a welcome page. So meaning it’s got the navigation on it and it’s on your site.
So here’s how it works. Go to interviewvalet.com/em. Right? For Eventual Millionaire. And everything Jamie and I talk about will be there. That checklist, the Excel spreadsheet, the book, and my calendar. You’re trying to move them to a dedicated page. Now, it does a couple of things. One, I can attribute the traffic now. I know exactly where it came from. The other thing is that, if you’re just listening to this, you have no idea what I look like. You have no idea what my website looks like. And you’re probably coming from a mobile device. So that means that traffic is gonna bounce awful.
You can check this. If you go to interviewvalet.com/em, this is what the page is gonna look like. It’s gonna have – Jaime’s picture shows up first. Right? Because that’s a trust seal. It’s gonna have the Eventual Millionaire logo, the artwork, there. Once again, a trust seal. And then it’s going to have welcoming you. So if you’re on this page, it’s because you heard Jaime and I talking about Eventual Millionaire. And then it goes through some different text. It’s got my picture, my social media, and then those offers there.
One of the big mistakes that people make on podcasts is they get to the end of the podcast and say, “Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn here. You can find me on Facebook here. You can find me on Twitter here. You can email me at this crazy address.” Do you really think anybody listening to a podcast at one and a half times speed is gonna remember all that? So make it easy for them. Tie it into the show. And our testing has always showed that converts best.
Jaime Masters: See, I was just gonna ask you, “Do we just pretty link it differently to all the things?” But if my face is there, you can’t just pretty link to the default page. So you must copy the pages and have your team actually – I mean, I know you do this on a massive scale for everybody. So very different, for sure. But it is one of those things where each time you have to get in and then put all the pieces. But if you talk about something new and different, your team has to put that in there too.
Tom Schwab: Yeah. But most of the time, it’s the 80/20 rule. Right? So it’s not changing that much. Most of the pages are just cloned and all you’re changing is the podcast name, the host name, pronouns from he to she, and some artwork in there. So it’s not that big of a thing but it’s important to the conversions. And people say, “Well, do I have to do that?” I’m like, “I don’t know. You can try it without it.”
I remember in high school, I baked a cake for my girlfriend and I left out some of the ingredients. What was it? Baking soda or baking powder. It was only a little bit of it. It was like, “Do I have to? I don’t even like the taste of that.” And I left it out and it wasn’t the same result. So do I have to build these pages? I don’t know. Give it a try. But I know that, if you do, you’ll get better conversions.
Jaime Masters: Well, it’s hilarious too. I’ve been on a podcast interview hiatus for a little while. It’s been months since I’ve been on one and I totally forgot that I have one today and one tomorrow. And I was like, “Didn’t remember to do any of the things you just suggested.” So we’re gonna have to hurry up and do this today or tomorrow. I’ll tell my team. Actually, they should listen to this interview and make sure we’re doing it the right way that Tom says. Because it’s true.
Tom Schwab: Afterwards, tell me which ones they are. I’ll send you the brief sheets for them that we give to all of our clients and you’ll know exactly who the host is, who the audience is, what questions they ask, and then there’s a great book out there called Lingo by Jeffrey Shaw and he talks about speaking the lingo of your audience. So we’ve got the lingo stuff in there. Is it a funny podcast? Do they talk over each other? If you were going live to this podcast, what would you wear? Just to give you a sense of it.
Jaime Masters: You guys do go to the nth degree. That is impressive. Thank goodness I know both of these people. One was a client actually too. So it’s interesting to go – and that’s the thing that I think is also a little interesting. Like we know each other. So sometimes when you go on a podcast where you actually know, I feel like I am a worse host when I know the person because I just assume either everybody knows everything about them or how that goes.
So when you’re a podcast interviewee but it’s somebody, not necessarily somebody you know but somebody you’ve followed for a long time – I’ve had people come on the show being like, “I’m such a huge fan.” And I’m like, “Okay.” It’s interesting, right? So how do we become either – I shouldn’t say not friends. But how do we roll with the punches when it comes to stuff like that that seems sticky?
Tom Schwab: I think it’s curiosity and just not making a lot of assumptions. To me, one of the stickiest parts is I always listen to the podcast at one and a half times speed. So –
Jaime Masters: So I talk this every time you listen to the show. Okay. I sound like a chipmunk.
Tom Schwab: Well, we’ve talked enough not on a podcast that I know what your voice sounds like. But it used to literally throw me. It would be like, “They sound so different and would they just get to the point.” From that standpoint. But just be curious. Don’t make assumptions. Sometimes just don’t make inside jokes that no one else would catch on to because that’s sort of rude to the other people that are listening in or at the party.
Jaime Masters: That’s actually a really valid point too. That’s awesome. I liked your story. So when we talk about that specific welcome page, how do you register the metrics? Because I know a lot of people use WordPress and stuff like that too. So they’ll be asking what do we actually do to make sure. How do we know which links they clicked and how many people came and how much short-term ROI we might be able to get from it?
Tom Schwab: Sure. So there’s a lot of different ways that you could do that. So you could go into Google Analytics and just figure out what kind of traffic came to that page and you should be able to see the spike and then it decay away after the interview. And sometimes it’ll spike again when the host mentions you or people go back and binge listen. So you can look at that. The other thing is that you could tag those links through Google Analytics and see which ones are there. If you’re using something like Ontraport or Infusionsoft, anything like that, you can tag the calls to action. So you could attribute it, to know where it came from.
Or even on your nurturing sequence, you could build that up and even mention where they found out about you. So you could say, in your different emails, mention a friend’s name. Right? If you keep mentioning Jaime Masters’ name, it is sort of a tacit endorsement every time that’s on there. The podcast host picture in there. So there are all kinds of different ways you can do that.
And one of the things that’s important, too, is that not every podcast interview is gonna be a homerun. Right? Even for us. Some of them are base hits, some of them are home runs. Well, it’s important to know that. Right? Because if it’s a base hit, why was it that way? If it’s a home run, find a reason to get back on that podcast. If they loved you once, they’ll love you again. Or find other podcasts that are very similar to that.
We had a client that he was on a lot of different podcasts and all of a sudden we said, “Did you realize that you really do well on e-commerce podcasts and dental podcasts?” And he’s like, “You know, I have gotten a few clients from that.” And he had big ticket clients. After that, I mean, for the next six months, that’s all he was going on. You would have thought that he specialized in dentists and e-commerce. But, once again, it’s like that fish in a barrel. Some of these podcasts were small dental podcasts but he was fishing in a barrel of motivated buyers there.
Jaime Masters: Wow. Yeah. And the niches now are pretty insane. Because you go deep on this stuff, so can you help us understand how deep the waters go, I guess. Because I didn’t realize that there were that many dental podcasts out there. So when we go down that rabbit hole, tell me how deep it goes.
Tom Schwab: It’s amazing. Somebody pointed out to me pickle ball. I had never heard of it before.
Jaime Masters: Do you know that Gary Vee played here in Austin at South by Southwest with us? Yeah. Yeah. We were at a guy’s show. Anyway, we’ll talk about this later but, yes, no inside jokes.
Tom Schwab: And there’s a lot of people going, “What the heck is pickle ball?” Google it. But there’s eight podcasts that focus on pickle ball. If you were the pickle ball coach, if you were selling pickle ball equipment, you could go on the Gary Vee Show. You could go on Eventual Millionaire. Would you find all your ideal customers? No. Go to those eight barrels of pickle ball aficionados and go there. So really it’s a focus thing.
And a lot of times, when people say, “I want to get on the big podcasts,” it’s like, “Why?” Do you want five minutes on the Super Bowl or would you rather have 45 minutes talking to a conference room of 100 ideal customers? You know? One would be a lot more expensive than the other and nobody on the Super Bowl really wants to hear me talk. I’d probably be made a joke of more than anything.
Jaime Masters: So when you’re looking at those niches, do we refine our content for the niche? So pickle ball, totally different subject, right? Everybody needs to Google that though. It was really crazy. Anyway. So when you look at the niche, like the dental podcast guy, does he go and he tells all his stories about dental podcasts? Does he say, “I specifically work with dentists,” so that way they feel like it’s more for them? Or does he not refine a lot of the pieces for that?
Tom Schwab: It wouldn’t be. I don’t think he would say, “I only work with dentists.” Because that’s not true and if they went to his website, they’d see that. But you know what? All the examples that he uses have to do with dentists. The offer that he uses, the ten tips for whatever – there’s one that says, “The 10 Tips for E-Commerce Owners.” There’s another one that says, “The 10 Tips for Dentists.” How to do this online. They’re the same ten tips, right? Maybe they’re slightly different but the title is different on it. So content is kind, context is god. So using that ever so slightly.
And when you go to that page, what you’re gonna see is resources there that focus on dentists. Right? So if I’m on a coaching podcast, the case studies that I might link to on that page are all gonna be coaches. Nobody really cares about a major brand that’s doing it or an author or speaker. They want to know people there. So, once again, it’s more – you can put context in there. You don’t have to totally redo an offer for people. You can slightly change it. And how much would it cost on fiver to change that PDF from e-commerce to dentist? Probably about $5.00.
Jaime Masters: Seriously. Well, and that’s the thing that I think is so important is that everybody – it’s because everything on the internet has been so refined and no niched, people are expecting that now too. Right? They’re like, “I don’t want the guy that does everything. I want the guy that knows what my specific problems are.” Because they all think that they’re all different. Right? Even though sometimes they’re not. The ten tips will still be very helpful, people.
But I love that, too, because I feel the same exact way. Because we’re bombarded with content so it’s hard to go through the mass amounts of content and when it says, “Hey, this is for you,” it’s way easier on a silver platter, which helps conversion. How perfect. Awesome. And what was the name of your book? Because I know you said you were gonna put it on that link also.
Tom Schwab: It’s called Podcast Guest Profits: How to Grow Your Business with Targeted Podcast Interviews. And it’s basically our playbook. It’s how podcast interview marketing works. And I always say, what we do, it’s not magic. It’s not art. Right? It’s a recipe, like baking a cake or building an engine. And we just do it with excellence. It’s the only thing we do. You can do it yourself. And people said, “Well, why would you write a book like that to tell people how it’s done?” And I’m like, “Well, the same reason a chef does it.” Right? A chef can put it in a cookbook, he can do a video and show you how to do it. Some people will try it. Other people will just say, “No, I want the results.”
And that’s the clients that we work with. The clients that really want the return on investment and they say, “My most limited thing right now is my time and I want to make sure I get the most results, the most return on investment, for every minute of time I invest and dollars I invest.” So I just look at as I believe podcast interview marketing is gonna be huge. It’s gonna be as big as Facebook marketing or email marketing and I want people to do it right and get the best out of it. And if that’s working with me, that’s great. If it’s doing it by themselves, how can I help you?
Jaime Masters: I love it too. To me, transparency is huge. Because it is. I was wondering before we even had this interview how open you would be but I love you, Tom, and this is the point. You really do. You’re like, “Here it all is. And for the people that want white glove, we can help them too. We’ve dotted all the i’s and crossed all the t’s for you or you can do it on your own.” And I know how intense it is. I know your team and I know how crazy you guys work on the back end of all this stuff too.
So it is an initiative. If you do want to do it, people, make sure you have the time and the energy because it’s definitely – if you want to do it right and actually see some results. Instead of going, “Eh, it didn’t really work for me.” Because I feel like that happens a lot also. Where people are like, “Eh.” But it just means that they didn’t do their due diligence or the pieces that we talked about today.
Tom Schwab: There are so many things in life that are easy to do but hard to do well. I mean, that’s why we hire experts. You know? Could I paint a picture? Sure. I could slap some paint on there. Would anybody pay me for it? No. I wouldn’t even post it online. Your paintings are great and I see one in the background there. And you look at it and say it’s easy to do but it’s hard to do well. And it’s the same way there.
People come to us and we work with them and build a relationship and they’re like, “Hey, can you help us launch a podcast.” And I’m like, it’s probably our zone of competency but never hire someone that’s working in their zone of competency. You know? Podcast interview marketing is our zone of genius. Let me introduce you to someone.
Jaime Masters: That’s amazing. I know we have to start wrapping up. Okay. So I’m gonna ask you the last question that I gave you in advance but I’m sure you’ve listened to the show before so you’ve heard this. Thank you, Tom, for doing your due diligence work. So what is one action that listeners can take this week to help move them forward towards their goal of $1 million?
Tom Schwab: Let people know about you. Do something. Right? Your biggest problem right now is that you’re obscure. There is people out there – there are people out there that would be thrilled by your product or your service that you have right now. The only thing that keeps you from helping them and them from giving you money is that they don’t know about you. So do something. Maybe it’s reaching out to be on a podcast. Maybe it’s engaging on a blog. Maybe it’s doing a Facebook Live.
But do something so that you’re not obscure. Maybe testing that page is not gonna help you if people just don’t know you exist. So get out there. Put yourself out there. And thrill your ideal customers. Let them know that you’re alive.
Jaime Masters: Yes. I call it active versus passive action. Passive action, going through and doing little tactical updates that nobody will ever pay attention to. The scary stuff that Tom’s talking about? Going out and actually getting out there and showing your face in front of people is harder and way more worth it. So thank you so much, Tom. So give us the link again to the amazing welcome page that we already know exists.
Tom Schwab: Sure, interviewvalet.com/em, for Eventual Millionaire.
Jaime Masters: Yes. So they don’t have to spell eventual or millionaire. You’re a smart, smart man. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really, really appreciate it.
Tom Schwab: Thank you, Jaime.